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• • •
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December 27, 2013

First They Came for the Ostjuden, But I Did Not Speak Up, Because I Was a Westjude. And Looking Back That Was Arguably a Mistake.

One of humanity's least attractive characteristics is our tendency to be cool with the persecution of others when we don't think that persecution will ever be applied to us. But of course if there's any lesson from history, it's that persecution of even the most despised minorities will spread—so if you know what's good for you, you'll oppose it out of self-interest even if it doesn't apply to you right this second.

Here's a story along these lines from I.F. Stone:

I followed the rise of Hitler very closely, beginning in twenty-nine and thirty. I remember one German-Jewish reader [of the Philadelphia Record] coming to me, about thirty-one or thirty-two. He said, "Why are you writing these editorials against Hitler? I got a letter from Germany that says he's only against Ostjuden [Eastern Jews].

There have been many bad calls like this throughout history, and this was certainly among the worst. But at least German Jews usually did not personally help murder Eastern European Jews, whereas much of the Armenian genocide was carried out by Turkish Kurds. Their theory, I guess, was that as a persecuted minority their best move was to help kill another persecuted minority because governments that kill one persecuted minority never ever do it to another one.

—Jon Schwarz

Posted at December 27, 2013 11:37 AM

Hi! Jon Schwarz

Perhaps you could comment .....

I can not understand why we are "Allowed" to question and/or investigate the holocaust committed against the North American Indian but not the holocaust against the Jewish Folks.

I was born in 1948 and was schooled by the media as to my views of Jewish Folks. I was sort of sympathetic towards them because of this.

However, my views began to change dramatically when reading an article in April 2006 and expressed my concerns while participating in the TVO Agenda forums. (Now closed.)

Ahmadinejad Needs to Learn

I was totally stunned with the duplicity.

In 1948, with Hitler dead less then 2 years, …. At the very heart of the newly formed country of Israel, …. at the highest levels of government, …. within the Israeli cabinet, the Jewish folks were actually talking about committing a holocaust against the Arabs and which is the exact same crimes as Hitler was being chastised for.

Each time I read about the Jewish Folks seeking return of artworks and properties seized during World War II, I think of Israel's refusal to return the properties stolen from Palestinians in 1948 and again in 1967.

Since then I have studied Jewish history quite extensively and created a database of sorts.

I am quite convinced that the hatred against the Jewish Folks in Europe which resulted in the holocaust was partly because of revenge against the Jews for their support of Stalin.

From 1934–1941 alone, some 7 million victims were sent to the system of concentration camps known as the "gulag," including one million Poles, hundreds of thousands Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, and half the entire Muslim Chechen and Ingush people. Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Bashkirs, Kalmyks followed. Stalin’s gulag did not need gas chambers: cold, disease and overwork killed 30% of inmates yearly.

Nearly half the those holding the senior posts within the Stalin security forces were of Jewish decent.

There must of been a lot of refugees from these Stalin holocausts wandering around Europe seeking revenge against the Jewish Folks.

I don't question that the holocaust against Jews did take place. I simply question some of the reasons. Not that anything justified such an event in history.

I believe that things need to be put into proper historical context of the times and not simply state that it was a crime against a religious sect.

I think that if one recalls the "Roaring 20's" and where the Rich Folks were flaunting their wealth, and then recognize that during the 1930 depression and where people were having to sell or pawn their valuables and family heirlooms just to feed their families, great resentment was created because a majority of pawnshops were owned by Gypsies and Jews.

I believe that the holocaust began or originated as class warfare. (In addition to the Jewish Support of Stalin and his henchmen.)

One also needs to remember, March 1933, that the Jewish Folks in America (Samuel Untermyer) were calling for a "Holy War" against Germany, and this was long before the gas chambers were opened.

And perhaps some explanation is required as to why the Jews who fled Europe because of stereotyping and racism would arrive in Hollywood and create/finance films which depicted blacks and Indians in such a horrible way or in the same racist fashion as Gobbles had done to the Jewish Folks?


Posted by: Calm at December 27, 2013 12:31 PM

Calm, I have no idea what's in your heart, but this comes across as pretty weird. Sure, if you want to you can wonder about all the reasons that the holocaust may have seemed like a good idea at the time, just as you can spend all your time fixated on all the violence perpetrated against white settlers by Native Americans, of which there was a considerable amount. Likewise, you can exclusively ponder how Christian Armenians occupied much of the merchant class of Turkey, and Buddhist Chinese occupied much of the merchant class of Indonesia prior to their respective genocides. But you'll have to accept that if you do just one of these things it will seem very creepy.

Posted by: Jon Schwarz at December 27, 2013 06:04 PM

"Jewish Support of Stalin and his henchmen"

When you learn about the support of the Tsar for the anti-Jewish pogroms, perhaps the early support of Russian Jews for the promises of the Bolsheviks will become more comprehensible.

Posted by: ORHS73 at December 27, 2013 08:57 PM

Calm, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other than creating an elaborate tit/tat chain that proves a certain amount of human hypocrisy. Beyond that, what's your point? As Jon noted, your post comes across as rather strange.

We are a tribal species. We tend to support our own tribe, even if members of it are sociopaths, because, after all, they're OUR sociopaths. Meaning, OUR sociopaths are always more acceptable than THEIR sociopaths, so-called.

It's a terrible glitch in our evolutionary adaptation, and uniquely terrible in a world of 7-billion souls, a world deep into energy and resource overshoot. Tribal politics will simply kill us all in a world like this.

Posted by: LL at December 27, 2013 08:59 PM

None of this is old news. In fact some of the kommissars at would gladly have shot me for the crime of wrongthink during the great pie fight in the summer of 2013. And I'm not even a jew! Sometimes people just get upset, and then they turn weird, and then people get hurt.

Posted by: Horace Boothroyd III at December 27, 2013 09:23 PM

HUMAN Greed= boundless, vast, infinite, endless.
HUMAN Respect= infinitesimal, minute, rare or nonexistent.
HUMAN Stupidity= see HUMAN Greed^^^.

Posted by: Mike Meyer at December 27, 2013 09:29 PM

Just one question Calm:

Who is "Gobbles"?

Posted by: karl at December 27, 2013 11:58 PM

Ah, the banality of the anti-Semite, who hears any discussion of the Holocaust as a call to arms. Eager to prove that Jews have also committed terrible crimes, he remains stubbornly unaware that this merely proves that they are human.

Posted by: John at December 28, 2013 08:34 AM

Calm's rather confused and disjointed post ignores the lesson he should have learned in kindergarten, which is that "two wrongs don't make a right". While there clearly have been atrocities committed against other ethnic groups and the Jewish people have been less than gracious to Palestinian people, it doesn't diminish in any way, the horror committed against the Jewish people by the Nazis. Read "Night" by Elie Wiesel for a first person account, if you have any doubts.

Posted by: Stephen Kriz at December 28, 2013 11:54 AM

I think what Calm's post says, and the responses to Calm's post say, is that violence begets violence.

I believe in justice, but the means to the ends are really, really important.

Posted by: Susan at December 28, 2013 12:59 PM

I.F. Stone also wrote in 1956 -“The road to peace lies through the Palestinian refugee camp.”

Posted by: tom at December 28, 2013 03:20 PM

The only road through a Palestinian Refugee Camp is a tank trail.(hint: dual tracks@shell craters.)

Want peace for Palestine? Stop paying the Egyptian Army and The IDF to kill off Palestinians. The process could be done incrementally. For every Palestinian that is wounded or dies, then BOTH sides each lose $100,000,000.00 in foreign aid.

Posted by: Mike Meyer at December 28, 2013 04:05 PM

I guess what I was trying to say is that I am awful tired of holocaust stories and how Jewish Folks are victims. I was attempting to show the duplicity.

I was trying to point out that the Jewish Holocaust was not based upon religion but rather revenge for the Jewish support of the holocausts committed by Stalin, and because of Jewish influence within the financial sector prior to the Great Depression. (class Warfare.)

And it seems to me that when this topic is mentioned, the Pro-Israel supporters always tackle the writing ability of the individual posting the comment and/or suggest that there is a "hidden agenda" as per the comments made.

I was hoping that readers would either agree or disagree with my views stated. Perhaps show where I was incorrect.


Posted by: Calm at December 29, 2013 12:40 AM

Calm, let me reassure you on one point: I do not think your agenda is hidden.

Posted by: Jim Henley at December 29, 2013 12:35 PM

Calm: "Not that anything justified such an event in history."

Jim Henley: Calm "says the Jews had it coming."

Why lie?

Posted by: Beastmaster at December 29, 2013 02:36 PM

Whether The Jews had it coming or not makes no difference now after the fact. They got massacred no mater how one sees it. (So did the Indians for that mater). STILL that gives NO special right to "pass it along" to the next group of people one may run across. Theoretically such events are to be "Teaching Moments".

Posted by: Mike Meyer at December 29, 2013 06:52 PM

Calm: I'm not lying. I'm simply reading what you actually wrote without giving undue credence to your slimy little feints in the direction of reasonableness. Also, you are a fucking worm. NB: This is not an ad hominem. I am drawing the conclusion that you are a fucking worm from your argument, not using the fact that you are a fucking worm to discount it.

Posted by: Jim Henley at December 29, 2013 07:51 PM

I agree with Jim Henley's comment, and Karl's question about "Gobbels" made me chuckle.

Posted by: N E at December 29, 2013 09:38 PM

Hey, Calm: I'm not really concerned about what you think.
And do you know why ?
we got f**kin nukes
and we will use em

Posted by: ezra abrams at December 29, 2013 10:28 PM

I refer to the present world situation.

At this moment in time, TV-land is flooded with Pawn Star Hollywood Shows. Taking your stuff to a pawnshop is a half-assed "Classy" thing to do. It can sometimes be "Rewarding". And Storage Locker purchases. And "Repo" just about everything else.

I believe that the media is not exactly expressing the anger upon the streets at/or with anybody who even "Smells" of wealth.

And ..... If we compare "Hitler Times" .....

And when I review all the anti-terror legislation which is presently in place, I visualize the same type of "Class War" .... not a "Religious War" aimed at Jewish Folks. A Class War aimed at anybody connected to the Banking/Financial sector of the U.S. economy.

Just last week, 1.3 million were shut-down via unemployment benefits.

And another million more take-a-ways coming due within 6 months.

They say that, generally speaking, there are 3 applications for each job opening. This means that there are going to be about a half a million homeless people wandering the streets aimlessly within 6 months.

There are at least 3 million ex-military returning "Home" from Middle East Wars.

There are millions of unemployed persons within prisons and jails as well.

Sort of like times were in the "Roaring Twenties" .... And then the Economic Disaster of 2006. Today they view all the Economic Terrorists as traitors and want to see some of them hung up on lampposts in some sinister dark alley.

Obama is said to be plunging in the opinion polls because people are not too happy with the economy.

But if the truth be known, it is the NSA Spying which is really drawing down Obama's poll numbers, There is huge anger on the streets. Young People demand or in the very least "Expect" a Free Internet .... that is how computers were sold to us in the 1980's onwards. Computers were sold to us as "Community".

I think that we are repeating history.

I think that what happened in Hitler's time began as "Class Warfare." and that it will involve outright excommunication (Jailed) from society as you know it. "The Street" views anyone involved within the financial sector being treated as "Community lepors".

I'm reminded of this article ....

On My Mind; Wall Street Worries
By A. M. Rosenthal
January 31, 1987


Posted by: Calm at December 30, 2013 02:09 AM

Another great aspect of the screw compressor is that they can use oil in the process, or be completely oil free.

Posted by: kaeser air compressor at December 30, 2013 03:01 AM

Let's try to look at the bright side too, shall we, especially as the odometer of the years is about to advance again? Here's something from a post here, and quotes I appended, four years ago:


Jonathan Schwarz: There are lots of great things about people, despite our tendencies to be cruel self-absorbed greedheads.

Rabbi Jack Moline: Rabbi Simcha Bunam used to say, "Every person should have two pockets. In one, [there should be a note that says] bishvili nivra ha'olam, 'for my sake was the world created.' In the second, [there should be a note that says] anokhi afar va'efer, 'I am dust and ashes.' One must know how to use them, each one in its proper place and right time. For many make the mistake of using them in their opposite applications." That is to say, too often, when we should be acknowledging our arrogance, we are defending it. And when we should be overcoming our self-denigration, we are confirming it.

Jacob Needleman, Money and the Meaning of Life: "A Freudian psychoanalyst once summed up to me his vision of the human condition by saying that man is not as bad as he thinks he is, nor can he become as good as he dreams of becoming. The assumption of this book is precisely the opposite of the psychoanalytic view: man is in far worse condition than he believes, but he can become far greater than he imagines."

Jeffrey M. Schwartz, A Return to Innocence: Philosophical guidance in an age of cynicism: "We often hear the phrase 'Knowledge is power' -- but nowhere is it truer than when it comes to knowledge of ourselves."


This last book, by the way, is what I gave to a niece of mine on her thirteenth birthday, in the paperback edition, which fortunately has a more teen-reader-friendly title, Dear Patrick: Life is Tough - Here's Some Good Advice. She's going to college next fall, and her Christmas present from me last week was Taking Our Places: The Buddhist Path to Truly Growing Up by Norman Fischer.

Best wishes and warm regards of the season, with hopes that the Creative Forces of the Universe will smile in our general direction.

Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. at December 30, 2013 07:26 AM

ah, it's nice to drop by an see mistah charley's warm benediction,and if it's Buddhist literature we're chatting up, I really like Jack Kornfield.

Posted by: N E at December 30, 2013 07:51 PM

Asking what the motive was is not the same as saying the crime "was a good idea" or that "Jews had it coming."

Beastmaster is right, why lie about what Calm wrote?

And if you are willing to admit that "Jews have also committed terrible crimes" and that it "merely proves that they are human," then why do you find it necessary to label someone an anti-Semite for pointing it out?

This topic cannot be discussed and a large part of that is probably do to what Rabbi Arnold Jacob Wolf said, "It seems to me that the Holocaust is being sold — it is not being taught.” A large part has probably has to do with psychological abuse of children where promoters have gone to such lengths as violating basic decency by exposing children to nude corpses with genitals exposed.

I suggest everyone read Norman Finkelstein's book "the Holocaust Industry" and John Sack's "An Eye for an Eye" for starters. Look up Elie Wiesel in the index of Finkelstein's book. And note that although Sacks's book "was corroborated by the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune," and although "historians hired by major newspapers in Germany went to the German Federal Archives and wrote, 'The facts are true,' 'The facts are right,' 'The facts are iron-bound,'" there were still people who underhandedly attacked him and made sure the things he researched are not known by the general public.

Posted by: Tom Murphy at December 30, 2013 10:44 PM

Hey! Tony Murphy

That was an excellent reply.

I was not aware of Jack Sack's book. I Googled it and found it available at WebArchives.

I have another sort of "Off-Sided" comment to make.

What I have noticed is that most pictures I have viewed of Jewish Polks lining up and heading towards the gas chamers during Hitler Times, they seem to be "Parading To Their Deaths".

They seem to walk with such downtrodden determination. Not much resistance.

Here are my thoughts on this matter.

Jewish Folks wear the Yakama hat so as to have something on their heads which is between them and God.

In the "Religious Realm", and with shaved heads, the Jewish Folks were found with nothing upon their heads or between their body and God.

When the Jewish Folks were lining up and walking towards the gas chambers or living with the concentration camps, they sort of "Paraded" because of being psyychologically destroyed "Religiously".


Posted by: Calm at December 31, 2013 07:38 AM

Calm: I would have guessed it was "The Parade Marshalls" with the swastikas&machineguns that were the cause of those aforementioned "parades". Its probably hard to smile and wave when the street audience points their machineguns at you.

Posted by: Mike Meyer at December 31, 2013 03:44 PM

Reading Jon's post and the comments, I felt, the following article By Prof Ariel Dorfmann may be worth reading......
It had ME thinking for a long long time..



Posted by: rupa shah at December 31, 2013 08:34 PM

continued from above.......

Today being New Year's eve, I wish everyone a safe celebration and safe drive home.
For any one staying home and relaxing, a piece of lovely of my favs....


Posted by: rupa shah at December 31, 2013 08:43 PM

Well, I have read all the replies and I have enjoyed the conversation.

I guess not much more that I can add.

I'm glad to have had the opportunity to discuss this topic.

In return, I would like to give you a 4 minute audio file (.wmv). Size is 31.5MB.

I will leave the download link available for the next 24 hours.

It is the "Master Copy" of a song for Edward Snowden.

When the Edward Story broke within the media in early June, I instantly recalled a tune by Sting-Police, "Every Breath You Take".

I altered the lyrics a bit.

The tune was Produced/Arranged/Distributed and website up and running, within a mere 32 days.


Posted by: Calm at January 1, 2014 11:55 AM

Calm: Enjoyed the video, clever. THANX!

Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 1, 2014 01:46 PM

rupa shah: Read the article. It reminds me of Bush&Cheney looking the other way when warned of 911. Then the 911 Commission looked the other way in the investigation. Then ALL of US looked the other way going into Afghanistan and ESPECIALLY Iraq. What gets me is WE will do it again&again. WE seem unable to learn.

Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 1, 2014 01:58 PM

@ Calm
Great link!
Thank you!

Posted by: rupa shah at January 1, 2014 02:44 PM

ah, i knew i'd find a reason i'd be pleased my internet has been non-functional for the past week and a half

speaking personally, i thoroughly endorse kaeser air compressor's response to Calm, although international removals is clearly overthinking things.

Posted by: weaver at January 2, 2014 08:26 AM

Okay! .... After 24 hours, I have disabled the link to the audio file I posted earlier.

However; it is available to view as Flash Video.

This video contains an Edward Snowden voice-over. This voice-over is not part of the actual audio file I had posted earlier.


And if anybody was keenly interested in the Edward Snowden storyline, I follow it rather closely.

Archive Reference: On Topic
U.S. Terrorism: National Security Agency - NSA
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act - FISA
Warrantless Wiretapping : e-Mails and Phone Calls
Articles and Commentaries by various writers and media pundits.
December 16, 2005 --- February 20, 2006
February 28, 2006 --- August 21, 2007
August 23, 2007 --- March 17, 2010
April 01, 2010 --- June 15, 2013
June 17, 2013 --- July 16, 2013
July 17, 2013 --- September 12, 2013
September 14, 2013 --- November 08, 2013
November 12, 2013 --- December 31, 2013

Posted by: Calm at January 2, 2014 01:13 PM

weaver: AGREED!
Calm: Please, You're destroying my dream that I once had privacy and that I was just being paranoid about someone spying on me.

Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 2, 2014 08:56 PM