January 24, 2011
From the newly-leaked Palestine Papers, here's Tzipi Livni, then Israel's foreign minster, speaking during a meeting with members of the Palestinian Authority in 2007:
LIVNI: I was the Minister of Justice. I am a lawyer…But I am against law -- international law in particular. Law in general.
Posted at January 24, 2011 11:07 PM
No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
I'm no expert on Jewish history and culture, but isn't that statement a rejection of Judaism?
'Shut up Moses! Laws are for Philistines!'
I'm generally in the camp of not resorting to leaks to make a point, since I am a propagandist and the people who need convincing would probably not be able to recall their contents, or even worse, believe them to be forgeries if they start making your argument more powerful.
Not to ruin the fun, but it looks to me like Livni was saying he is against including law in general and international law in particular in connectionwith a joint statement being crafted in advance of the upcoming Annapolis Summit. Basically, the Palestinian negotiating team wanted to talk about international law and, guess what, the Israelis didn't. (The reason should require no explanation.)
In an essay on Rudyard Kipling, George Orwell wrote in 1942:
No one, in our time, believes in any sanction greater than military power; no one believes that it is possible to overcome force except by greater force. There is no ‘Law’, there is only power. I am not saying that that is a true belief, merely that it is the belief which all modern men do actually hold. Those who pretend otherwise are either intellectual cowards, or power-worshippers under a thin disguise, or have simply not caught up with the age they are living in. Kipling's outlook is prefascist. He still believes that pride comes before a fall and that the gods punish hubris. He does not foresee the tank, the bombing plane, the radio and the secret police, or their psychological results.
Livni is a she. And I didn't look at the context, but I assume you're right about it. And I'm not sure why it was supposed to ruin the fun. Of course Israeli officials oppose international law because it would get in the way (if taken seriously) of what they do to Palestinians.
Same reason the US is opposed to international law, at least when applied to us.
Just listened to the story on NPR. It seems WE've all been less than honest and the USA less than helpful. On a lighter note, the tanks WILL continue to rumble, the jets will continue to fly, bombs fall and YOUR MONEY flow.
That quote by Livin would be even better if she meant she didn't like international law in general, which is basically the cryptofascist view, but it looked to me like she just meant it shouldn't be part of the joint statement being crafted.
I agree that israel doesn't want to talk about international law for the same sort of reasons the u.s. often doesn't.
By the way, the SOTA last night made me want to buy earplugs.
NE: I liked the part about desubsidizing Big Oil. IF he pulls that one off I'd damn near say he's "centrist".
As far as Israel and THE LAW, it'll be by THE LAW OF MOSES that they WILL be judged. My guess is that "A eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is gonna be in the mix.
I'm against law as well since it is used by the few to take advantage of the many. The law is only for little people, to punish them. Rich white people rarely worry about law.
International law is a U.S. invention is it not? Yet if international law was enforced Bush/Obama would be in prison. Just another example of how the law applies to little people only. So Liver lips is a liar, he actually loves the law because the Israeli government uses their laws to punish the Palestinians.
I once met a rich white guy named Rich White.
Did he worry about the law?
Doubt it but dunno. Law is just a tool for business. And int law is older than the us, though the 20th cent self destruction of europe changed the game.
Yes, international law is older than the U.S. but I think it was the UN and therefore the U.S. that has framed most of modern international law. And law may be a tool for business but it is also the means by which one group of people lords it over other groups. For example Blacks and Whites here in the States, there is a disproportionate number of Blacks in prison so clearly the law is being used to disadvantage Blacks by Whites.
But Zippi, the question was how do you feel about the law. Can you please answer that, and then we can move on to the next question.