Boy, are you young!!! I was on my second wife when Ron got elected. I had a good friend, Bob R., at that time. Bob had a crazy story, I thought at the time. Bob claimed he was serving in the military, infantry, in the early 50's. Bob said that he was in New Mexico and survived a nuclear test blast. He was 500 meters from a tower burst, in a 6 ft deep trench along with his company, wearing regular fatigues, a gas mask, and a regulation field protective poncho. They were all made to lie in the "dying cockroach" postion, that is on their backs, arms and legs folded up to protect the torso. When the weapon detonated, Bob was slammed in the trench so hard he broke his ribs. The heat wave and radiation sunburned him through his clothes. But he lived to tell me 30 years later. He said he never was really healthy after that and was trying to get some cancer treatment from the VA at that time. (The military was refusing to admit to the tests at that time, and therefore refusing treatmtnt for Bob. I never heard how his case turned out.) A nuclear blast IS survivable even close by.

..."apocolyptic fiction"? I respond to people who read (and write) that stuff, "When you fictionalize, you trivialize."

--which sounds a bit better than, "There is no god, you superstitious fanatics!" (...which Tom Tomorrow used first in an actual cartoon).

Mike Meyer, thanks all the same but I would rather not wish to put your idea to a test.

Well it is heartening indeed to see we are in the midst of a ruptured rapture led by lunatic president who has surrounded himself with lunatics and voted in by lunatics.

When you think about the life of Bush and how it reads like a cheap dime novel with bizarre characters and crazy plots and to think that Bush’s grasp on reality is that he believes he is the tool of God put on earth to bring about Armageddon well… I just want to wish all you folks out there good luck and may God be with you. Amen.

Look! Here comes Jesus Christ hoppin' down the bunny trail!

Great post Jonathan and thanks for the link to Froomkin and always remember only the good die young. Seriously though Bush scares me too not that I am afraid of the rapture as I am going be born again as a fundamentalist just to keep my bases loaded,er I mean covered.

That was still a near-fatal error from a Russian computer, Jonathan. Just shows them Commies couldn't make Jack Shit! No wonder they lost.

Better yet if he came back and didn't take em. Then you have a bunch of holy rollers making glass-squeaking sounds, looking in from outside.

Sorry, I forgot to change back.

Oh no, I really thought you were Andrei. I am crushed but I still like your better yet.

The rapture ready folks who are being activley mislead by the whitehouse and its minions need to be vigorously confronted on a theoogical basis. These rapture evangelists have followers that do not even know the bible very well, let alone that a "Christain" administration is openly and cynically deceiving them. Just the exposure of such manipulation should be proof enough even to the most zealous follower that this isn't anywhere near the last curtain call.

After this period of political posing ends, (read the lebanon news cycle has run its course) there must be accountability for those "religous" leaders that have sold their flocks for political expedience.

When you have Fox News which is run by scientologists selling Christians false end times scenario to bolster a failed fascist government, its time for direct engagement and dialog from the intellectual parts of society to expose these false sheperds.

What we need is an after downing street for the evangelical crowd.

Whoops, I forgot to change back as well.

Wouldn't they actually say:

"No one could have predicted Jesus wouldn't show up."

I'm only posting because I thought I could use a change.

Actually, my favorite scenario is that the Rapture happens and all the loonies who promote war find they are in a holding pen and God says, "There can't be a thousand years of peace with people like you around, so I'm taking you out. You can all kill each other in here if you want to but if you can't learn to live with each other you aren't getting into Heaven."

Then he says to the rest of us: "It's not what they thought. Now you can get all that peace and justice stuff going. Carry on."

Kids! I actually remember Eisenhower being elected, and seeing the McCarthy hearings on television. (Not to mention Vietnam -- and thanks to Dr. Albert Ellis who wrote me a note telling my draft board that they'd be crazy to draft me -- and Watergate.)
I should go from there to saying that the current Admin isn't anything to be afraid of, any more than McCarthy and Nixon proved to be. But I can't. I think that the change in political discourse, with the real crazies on the right -- and yes, to a lesser extent on my side -- becoming more and more the 'mainstream voices'; with people like Coulter, Malkin and LeHaye and Rosenberg being taken seriously, and with the Christianist people actually being dangerously close to power (see Ken Blackwell); and with the potential chaos that may be caused by the hackable electronic voting machines -- we may not know what the Congress is like for months after the election, with both sides crying 'fraud' -- and with Bush, unlike McCarthy and Nixon 'really believing that stuff' we are in a period of danger to this country at least as scary as the Depression or the pre-Civil War times.

I think the odds are in our favor that we'll get through this crisis too, because the Republicans will be fighting among themselves -- most conservatives are NOT Christianists or neoCons and those two have issues with each other -- and because George Bush is not the 'Great Leader" that could inspire a mass movement. But it's more dangerous than any recent time.

It's a sign of psychosis when someone can't tell the difference between his interior dialogue and the rest of the world. Everyone gets his own personal Armageddon. It may be a speeding truck, it may be heart disease, it may be Jeff Gannon accidentally choking you with his apparatus. The world is alive, it's just us who die off one by one, a thousand by a thousand. The world is alive with the sound of low-flying jets.

Johnson 1 1/2
Nixon twice
Ford
Carter?
Reagan twice
Bush 41
Clinton twice
Bush 43 twice
Face facts, we didn't get fooled again. We get fooled every time.

The are not that stupid. Sure, they're hoping for a nuclear war followed by the rapture, but don't worry: in the meantime they are building huge arsenals of sticks and stones - just in case.

I agree with Patience that Bush has been cynically using the right wing Christians or as Molly Ivins has said many times you have to dance them that brung you.

Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Israel, North Korea just to name a few have nuclear weapons and the list is growing. The true danger lies in the fact that Bush is scaring the governments and people of other nations around the world which is arming itself to the teeth. And when you have a bunch of frightened people anything can and will happen. Froomkin's best point is that we really don't know what Bush has in mind. There is no transparency which leaves everyone guessing.

The other dangers are the domestic issues. The republicans are planning to destroy social security in the next two years and that is a big deal to a lot of people especially when you consider that under Bush wages have stagnated not keeping up with inflation and many Americans are living beyond their means spending money they don't have.

Bush with his signing statements continues to flaunt our own laws as well as the constitution and is setting precedents for the future. Throwing people in jail with no charges or access to the courts, torture, backroom deals, a parliamentary style of government, spending money on war leaving nothing in the coffers to jumpstart a lagging economy or badly needed social programs, ignoring a health care system that is draining money, destroying social security the most popular and successful social program we have and all in the name of greed.

Why fear Armageddon when the world is already disintegrating and crumbling to our feet. Things will not get better in the next few years yet the American people will indulge in their apathy and fantasies until the time comes when we see that our economy is so bad that something must be done. And by then it might be too late and America wakes up from its dream of greatness to find it is now nothing but a third world country bankrupt and bereaved of responsible leadership, a nation of holy rolling fools, poorly educated, ignorant of even the most basic facts of the world and with nowhere to turn. This could be the heavy price we pay for those that voted for their morals rather than practicality.

Unfortunately you cannot eat a moral or even buy a loaf of bread with it.

Rob:
What can WE do to save our country?

>What can WE do to save our country?

What country? You don't have one (unless you got tons of dough)! You're just a subject like the rest of us in the
present imperium. Get rid of the idea of America, and create some thing better.

Mike Meyers,

Popular participation in politics at every level enhanced via computer usage by the populous to track and monitor the empowered. Without a center or a plan it is already beginning to work. Never underestimate the power of spontaneous self organization. The network effect of so many of us engaged in the hokey forum that is the web is already shaking things up. As Johnathan as already noted the emergent Internet Overmind is a force to be reckoned.

Ed:
AMERICA is where I was born, where I've always lived, don't WANT any better, don't KNOW any better. I'll take my chances here and work at that.

Patience:
I hope your right.

What is really pissy about the rapture is that it turns out you can't sell your stocks. Luckily, the Heavenly Heritage Foundation is urging fundamental reform on the deity. Some of the heavenly thinkers have made new ideas exciting in the New Jerusalem -- deregulating the messiah business, cutting back on the inefficiency of the heavenly hosts (private heavenly host enterprises can temp those harping jobs!), and revising a few of the onerous taxes that make it as hard for a rich man to get into heaven as a camel to get through a needle's eye - I mean, we are talking about people being encouraged to sell all they have and give to the poor, which leads to all kinds of vices. It is going to be a new and exciting post rapture scene, an ownership society type of heaven - supposedly Lucifer, an ardent Randian, now has a fellowship! The New Jerusalem post has commended the new thinking that is sweeping those streets of gold and many mansions!

To my mind, there has never been a better time to be a dead Stutts alumni.

Mike Meyer,

Wow that is a tough question. Yes the internet has some influence but I would not bet the bank on it at this point in time. Maybe the answer lies in more people getting involved in politics because as individuals we have no power to speak of but in large numbers people can make the politicians sit up and take notice maybe even sweat a little.

People volunteer time and effort working for the party of their choice during election time and that might be a good place to start getting involved. I know we could go round and round about how bad the democrats are and looking at guys like Lieberman it is easy to see why people feel the democrats have deserted their own party because to a certain extent they have. But the only thing standing between us and the republican effort to destroy democracy is the democrats and it looks like Lamont has a very good shot at winning the nomination. So if it can happen in Connecticut it can happen elsewhere and bring the Democratic Party back to a place though imperfect but at least more responsive to its constituents. I think the Lieberman race is shaking up the Democratic Party and in a positive way because it is sending a clear message to the DLC that they are on the wrong path.

I have always felt the real answer lies in election reform and also a drastic reform of lobbying practices which are still as corrupt as they have been since Bush took office. We need to remove the influence of lobbies as well as the influence of large corporations in the form of campaign contributions. Of course how to do that is the million dollar question.

Do you know, I just wish the Rapture Ready crowd really WOULD fuck off! Or to quote Matt Taibbi "God can suck my dick...". Rob Payne, unintentional irony? I really DO think Bush is a 'tool' of God, a short one, like 4 inches, two strokes faster than a Fox (sic) Terrier!!!

GreginOz,

Since you put it like that I suppose it might have been a Freudian slip but it was purely unintentional on my part though I find your comparison rather appropriate. You know people have argued over whether or not Bush is the worst president ever but I think that by the time the next two and one half years have gone by there will be no argument what so ever. I cannot speak for others but the years under the yoke of Bush have been by far the absolutely worst years of my entire life and to think that it pales in comparison to what the people of Iraq are going through it really makes me sad.

Jonathan,

I'm so old I remember Ronnie when he was running for governor of California. His catchy bumper sticker slogan read "If it's Brown, flush it!" He ordered campus cops/national guardsmen to bash unruly students. He approved oil drilling to the maximum thereby killing off our pristine beaches. Joan Baez referred to him as Ronnie Ray-Guns at Woodschlock. Even my parents were horrified at his election saying "He's a terrible actor and he's going to be a worse governor!"

I'm not so old that I may be considered one of the very fortunate non-mutants. All of us born after the first bomb was tested July 16, 1945 are creatures of the nuclear age and, therefore, nuclear mutants. As children, we were raised hearing shrieking sirens tested at the NIKI missile bases every weekend with constant reminders at school to 'duck and cover' in our assigned seats. We were never told that the reason for this was to identify our charred remains, if there were any!

We are the Children of Dr. Strangelove, embracing the darkest sense of humor possible, knowing that madmen will always be allowed to mis-rule because the strongest who ascend to leadership are seldom the smartest. The wealthiest families have never been known to be anything more than gangs of dumb, brutish louts and they always breed like rats! 'God' is their tool to maintain control over the masses who are kept ignorant in order to keep them in power forever. We are kept under the thumb because too many people refuse to rise from the slimy depths of that ignorance and read more than one book.

I, too, have frequent visions of mushroom clouds on the horizon & evangelicals on their lawns, desperately trying to jump to heaven. Some of them even drag out the kids' trampolines (remember St. Beryl the Leaper?).

"a"
What can WE do to save OUR country? (I'm not just asking you, I'm asking everybody) I don't live in CT so voting for Lamont is out for me.

It pains me to see the ignorance of those who put all "Christians" in the same category. It has been twisted. I know a different God, he is peace and love. He doesn't call people "Commies" and he doesn't make rude comments about you (at least not to anyone I know). If you look for the bad, you will find it. These nasty attitudes are part of the problem. It doesn't take a genius to see that one.

It's a sign of psychosis when someone can't tell the difference between his interior dialogue and the rest of the world. Everyone gets his own personal Armageddon. It may be a speeding truck, it may be heart disease, it may be Jeff Gannon accidentally choking you with his apparatus. The world is alive, it's just us who die off one by one, a thousand by a thousand. The world is alive with the sound of low-flying jets.
Posted by: Bob In Pacifica at August 6, 2006 09:32 AM

Jeff Gannon? I thought it was a pretzel! ;-)

Clear, I agree with you, and thank you for pointing this out. Just as distinctions must be made between believers in Islam and radical/political/militant Islamists, I think we should keep the distinction in mind that there are Christians who live by the peaceful teachings of Jesus and Christianists who are radical/political/militant. Too, their are conservative-minded people who are intelligent, informed, and have something of value to bring to to the solutions table, just as there are liberal-minded people and independents who are intelligent, informed, and have something of value to bring to the solutions table. The more the "other side" or the "not us" is stereotyped and demonized, the longer it will resist and persist.

Good Lord. The world is now, and has always been, replete with those who would destroy America at any cost, even now including suicide bombing as a means to knock off the greatest nation since the dawn of mankind to inhabit the earth. The sad fact that America itself has bred a large group of citizens who would aid this enemy in its task shames the millions who have sacrificed their all to give us our freedoms and personal liberties.

Blaming others, on a personal level, is always distasteful and reflects suspect character at best. Arrogantly, loudly asserting some point or another does not make it so.
To those whom history began when they began to pay attention to the world outside are a lost cause for persuasion...you cannot reason someone out of a position he was not reasoned into in the first place.

The hateful and just plain cruel way people of faith are spoken and thought of reveals an ugly spirit of intolerance, the same trait those same people would have the faithful exercise when considering deviant sexual behaviour or ending human life as though they were God themselves.

Lets hope the example of euthanizing Joe L. because he lacks the venom of the youthful zealots and displays no obvious anti American rhetoric doesnt further sharpen their axes.

The world used to be father knows best. Now, bigmouthed children with computers and a stunted, shallow understanding of life seem to know it all.

God help the nation when people like these are asked to step up, fight tyranny and keep America great. I suspect an Oprahlike discussion will take place, appeasement of the enemy and ultimately surrender.

It doesnt have to be this way.

It's a sad state indeed. The really sad part is how my Republican friends scream about the Islamic fanatics and their seventy virgins...yet their ultimate dream is the second coming and the end of the world. I guess that's what devotion buys you these days.

I did a comedy about Armageddon.

You can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OftwKZtwSfE

"a" or anyone:
What can WE do to save OUR country?

Err. Shit. I was going to post and say, "Damn, you're old! You remember Reagan getting elected?" But, never mind.

"The world used to be father knows best."

The world was never "Father Knows Best." Robert Young was an alcoholic and "Kitten" grew up to be a lesbian. Stop dreaming about a world that never was. It was just escapism from a world where the threat of commmunism and the bomb tainted our daily lives in Peyton Place.

I wonder how many lives will be lost before the true believers are convinced that Jesus isn't coming back. It's estimated that more than 62 million people died as a result of WWII; apparently that wasn't enough.

>I wonder how many lives will be lost before the true believers are convinced that Jesus isn't coming back.

It isn't the true believes in the Christ's "return" that is going to cost even more lives, It's the true believers in a "return" of the "Greatest Nation Ever" that is going to do it.

Bet on it!

PS. If the USA, or America is basicly an idea to these folks and some one says that if you've got problems with that idea in practice, i.e., calling any bad news Anti-American, are they right? Can one be anti-not America?

I've been around long enough to live through about eight of these so called apocalypses. Funny thing, they come and go and nothing happens. Except that the leaders of the group who predicted it gained in some way - either more control over their sheep or more money. The faithful are left baffled when it doesn't happen, yet ten years or so later, they fall for the same charade. Amazing!

What drives the fundamentalist mind is they don’t want to take responsibility for anything in their lives. In their philosophy God will take care of every aspect of their life. If they can't pay the rent God will intervene on their behalf and pay the rent for them. Never question just accept authority as long as that authority is Christian oriented.

Many years ago when I was going to school I used to give a girl who lived down the street rides to school. She was a fundamentalist and she explained to me how God will take care of everything and to prove it she told me that she was unhappy with her hair, it was too thin, so she prayed to God to make it thicker and lo and behold her hair got thicker.

You know I could care less what these people believe or do not believe but when they drag the rest of the country down the tubes killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people like the deaths in Iraq and elsewhere in the Mid East that is when I start to object to their madness.

I'm sure realists and rapturists could come to some sort of compromise.

They want to rapture and go to heaven, and frankly, we want them to rapture and go away.

Everyone can be happy if they are willing to give up the whole armageddon mass murder-y bit.

=my2c
BC

don't worry, sensible, daddy will come and save you!
that stuff about fighting tyranny was rich!

In 1492 the Greek Orthodox Church believed it was the end of the world and the time of the Return. It's good to see everyone here is still interested and worried about it. Meanwhile I'd like to see if ANYONE has any other POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS to how we can fix the straights THIS COUNTRY IS IN. I live for today, right now is the only time we can really experience. We have today's problems today and as AMERICANS we are DUTY BOUND to deal with them. When JESUS gets here, I'm sure he will have a different plan in mind as to what "taking care of business is", meanwhile this is still OUR country and as it's CITIZENS we are responsible, benefit and/or lose by what happens HERE, not in the NEXT LIFE. If we just keep sitting on our thumbs the way we are then NEWT will be YOUR PROPHET when he said this is WWIII. It won't stay over there, it will roll over here, and a blood bath will be your religion, just like those people on the front page of today's paper

We are not crazy, this stuff is really happening, these people are very dangerous, it has its own momentum, it just keeps rollin' this self imposed, self fulling apocalypse. Maybe us crazies be the only sane ones, but it aint much fun.

I ran into a couple that's friends with my parents this weekend. The husband is very um, expressive. He's also, um, bulky. The wife a little more prosaic. There was much asking after the health of my parents which has not been so great. Finally, I asked after theirs.

Husand: "Me? Me?! I am the PICTURE of Health! I have the strength of lions! Of Cockroaches! When the Atomic Bombs fall, I will live two weeks longer than everyone else. I can get through ANY--"

Wife:[cutting in]. "We're fine. FINE."

Many Americans finally began to understand that their government had cooked up war with Iraq based on a flood of outrageous lies, ably assisted by a compliant media that acted as a conduit for propaganda worthy of the old Soviet Union. Towards the end of 2005, Americans also began to realize that a cabal of far rightists had not only hijacked the government, but were hell-bent on sneaking in totalitarian controls designed to stifle dissent, institutionalize the politics of fear, and curtail constitutional rights.

Justice is a joke in America and Iraq, and Bush the warmonger is still riding high. Wake up, you Christian sheepies who still support him, and see the truth! In the name of the Prince of Peace.

The Church of the Empire will be jointly administered by members of the Bush Regime and such Christian luminaries as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Tim LaHaye. To prevent the Empire's bounty from going to waste in a heavily tithed society with Puritanical laws, the segments of the populace comprising the ruling elite (including the Church leadership) will be exempt from their own edicts.

Reality has been so altered here that speaking truth is akin to living in an insane asylum. Behind the walls of empire speaking truth equates to treason—an act of sedition. Either the inmates do not realize they are out of their minds, or they pretend that insanity is healthy and normal. Irrationality makes perfect sense to them in their state of dementia and denial. Dwelling among the mad is itself maddening for those who remain rational and intelligent, and caring of the needs of others. It would be easy, even rational, to leave them to their own self-destructive devices. But this is our home and we have a moral obligation to set things right. We owe it to the world to try.

Oh well, got any ideas on what to do about it?

Mike Meyer,

It may be too late to save the republic from the impending doom that these fanatics have chosen for the world. Remaining ignorant is not the solution. If you're looking for a solution through the electorate, it will take getting through to voters that there is no difference between the 2 major parties. The electorate must become Constitutionally aware in order to take it back from those who have usurped it.

Unfortunately, too many have succumbed to party propaganda stating that this nation was founded based on the 2 party system, that this evil word 'democracy' is a good thing and mentioned in the Constitution, and that voting for alternative parties is a waste of their vote, which it isn't. It is the exact opposite. I never waste my precious vote on RepubliCats or DemoCons. They miss the point of the founding of the GOP as an alternative and have bought into the status quo. It would help immensely if these voters would expose themselves to the truth, which has become a rare commodity today.

This is an aside to any X-tians who misinterpreted my remark about only reading one book and think I'm picking on only you: I was referring to all religious fanatics who claim that their particular 'book' is better than all others. Whether the bible, koran, torah, etc. these are all fine books, but someone wiser than I recommended that these should all have a disclaimer at the beginning stating "This book is fiction."

I had a philosophy professor who argued irrefutably and through axioms from all of these books, proved without a shadow of doubt that god was, indeed, a giant red jujubee. All one had to do was make the simple substitution of words and accept the ideal that a complete lack of knowledge was wisdom. I have yet to meet anyone who can disprove this theory. I have said it here before and will say it again: I live in the 21st century and invite all of those who remain blinded by the ignorance of a Dark Ages mindset to advance to the thinking of the Age of Enlightenment and join me here. You, too, can have a free will!

The most important thing you can do now, is ask for a paper ballot at the next election. The repugnicans have got the voting machines fixed. Do not use them.

On TV a man from Bush's Bible study group, years ago, said recently that Bush became religious because he was afraid his wife Laura was going to divorce him. Or put another way, "ask God what he can do for you, not what you can do for God." What a pathetic man!

Jimmo,

I have always voted by absentee ballot. Much more convenient. I can't believe that everybody doesn't vote this way. Maybe more people would vote if only they would take advantage of this much better alternative! Wise up and rise up, America!!!

I must agree, we need too return to a paper ballot. Personally, I would like to see the elector walk away with a receipt copy of a different color, in case some of the ballots disappear or have a pregnant or hanging chad.

These idiots told Kyre Phillips on CNN the same crap a couple of weeks ago. The horrible thing being she didnt bother to challenge them at all!!
In fact every day has a new Apocalypse Now! interview done by some gas bag or another with no questioning of premis happening at all. Crazed Christianists are pooring out of the wood work to be interviewed as if they were ex-generals in some imaginary war giving logistical insights.

I read every single one of these comments. The answer is the metric system. Give people a 100kph speed limit, take away their horsepower and give them kilowatts in return, and they'll behave. Now I'm sleepy, so off to bed for me.

Oh yeah, and revalue the dollar, make healthcare coverage universal, and legalize pot. Good night.

Jonathan Versen,

Ah, the good old metric system! We had to learn those conversions in elementary school back in the 50's because the teachers told us that the metric system would be universal by 1970. I'm sure our Fearless Leader can still do those metric conversions, especially after those 'business deals' of his in the 80's. "Hey, asshole! Ya'll shorted me a gram on that last ounce I bought from ya. Just cuz I'm rich, don't mean I'm stupid!" Unfortunately for us, he is still both!

It takes a busload of prophets to 'splain why -why we're all still right here when their doomsdays go by!

I remember the night Reagan was elected. I had two small children and believed that the end of the world was imminent. The great lesson for me (and unfortunately for the poor Russians) was that politicians lie. They lie out the ass. We expect them to lie and deceive us. His relative honesty was as much Carter's doom as anything--he was perceived as being weak because of it.
Anyone who believes that Bush possesses any modicum of sincerity in his political or religious statements is as stupid as the lemmings who believe that the endtime is at hand.
The greater tragedy, however, is that we have discussions like this and there is no movement, there is no obvious counterbalance to which we can attach ourselves; so people keep asking, "What can we do to change this situation, to save our nation, our species, the world?"
A few years ago I was part of a group that put together a forum of theologians, social critics, preachers, seminarians, social justice advocates, etc., in St. Louis. The first year we had about 75 people involved. The second year we changed the name of it to Justice Works and had more than 400 involved. The thing was rolling. The folks who put it together just lost interest as it was gaining momentum. I guess that 1) our situation isn't bad enough yet for us to step up to the plate and do anything with meaning or 2) we don't quite grasp just how screwed we are.
At any rate, the observation has been correctly made by the great Ed Friedman, "The earth is a living organism and it will survive, even if it has to eliminate parasites like humanity to do it."

T. Jeff Scott:
Aparently the MEXICANS know what to do about waking their government up. They may be Peons but they ain't Stupid Peons. And ,unlike us, aren't taking a crooked election lying down. Our neighbor is not only a hard worker, but politically speaking, a good example.

Mike and T. Jeff,

Mexico has not been taken over by Christian Zionist zealots either. They do have crooked, thieving weasels in power who don't care about supplying jobs for anyone who is not one of their cronies, same as we do. That's why so many poor people flood into America looking for jobs. Their politicians don't give them any hope. Even minimum wage here is better than no wage at all there.

The big difference here is the lobbying power of AIPAC, CUFI and all of these other organizations of raving lunatics who use the fear of God to mute any sensible argument or debate. The recent rantings of Pat Robertson spewing his particular brand of war-mongering hatred from the bowels of the beast in Lebanon on the '666 Club' every day is percieved as 'news' by his mindless minnions.

That makes the main problem here trying to overcome organized religions that have nothing to do with spirituality. These organizations should not be able to dictate foreign policy, especially when that policy calls for a reactionary reversion into this current Dark Age mentality that is attempting to destroy the world in the name of God. All of this mindless nonsense could have been prevented beforehand if only all of the books upon which all organized religions are based had been required to preface their ensuing text with this simple disclaimer: "This book is fiction."

"a"
It isn't religion it's the GREEDY POWER DRUNK people who use religion to keep people down. ANYTHING can be turned into a whip, not everything is a lie.

Mike,

Anthropomorphic entities are used by those in power to keep the masses in line. 'God' is only a concept in an attempt to explain the unknown. The essence of one dimension cannot be percieved by the preceding entity. The point is part of a line and concieved by the line, but cannot in turn do the same, just as the line cannot concieve the plane, the plane concieve the square, the square concieve the cube, etc. All superior dimensions have the preceding ones as essence, but those inferior cannot concieve the essence of that which is inconcievable.

All history has been written by humans and cannot be taken as fact due to the tendency of humans to grossly exagerate facts to obtain individual political and religious agendas. Mathematics is the only study that can be considered close to absolute truth, and that is shaky at best. When I was in high school geometry class, the teacher told us that plane geometry was required and would be used in the real world, long after we left his class. I retorted "If plane geometry is so useful in the real world and every triangle equals 180 degrees and you can't have two right angles in a triangle, then how can you have a triangle that starts at the North Pole, follows a longitudinal line to the equator for one right angle, moves on to the next line for another right angle, then finishes at the North Pole to complete the triangle?" I spent the rest of the day in the vice principal's office.

Everything is used as a whip and everything written by human hand is a lie. 'God' can't write books any more than humans may understand an inconcievable entity. Existence is in this world, not the big lie in the sky. It's like the old joke about the wise man on the mountain who will tell the secret of life only when the seeker brings him their entire fortune, only to have this whispered in his ear: "The secret is, there is no secret!"

Americanintifada,

I guess there is no need for faith, huh. Screw it! No need for hope either!! Who needs it. Nothing is true-or at least we can never know for sure what is true. Heck, is what you wrote even true. You sound quite convinced. But, I'm not buyin' it. So, I don't believe you. You are just making up your own realities like everyone else is. Everyone sure has alot of time on there hands to TALK about all of this, but no one has any answers. You are a smart individual. Extremely intelligent at that. But, knowledge does not make one wise. It sounds like many people have much knowledge, but not a whole lot of wisdom! But, then again, wisdom is unnecessary, I guess, if this world is our only existence. Live it up man!

It amazes me that one who believes in no absolute truth can explain away the existence of God. God exists? Not absolutely true. God doesn't exist? Well that is not absolutely true either, eh? He either does or doesn't, that's all I'm saying. Have you ever bothered to find out. OR maybe you already absolutely believe the truth that He doesn't exist. Then your whole premise of no study being absolutely true just doesn't make much sense now does it? Of course, I am sure you will have some explanation. Do you believe in evolution? I am assuming you do not think that this world was created by a higher power. But only assuming from your comment. Everyone believes something, but according to you, one can't really know for sure what to believe is true! So, I might as well just give up.

It is easy to get depressed by all of the comments left here. Does any one have ANY hope here? Anyone? If so, where does your hope abide? In yourself? In the expectation of a president who can "fix it all." In the liquor store? In the legislative body? In a group that you belong to that is going to change the world? In God? In Buhdda? In some other thing or person?

At the risk of sounding fanatic, my hope is in the Lord. Because, in all honesty, I have been looking for hope in alot of other things and haven't found it. My hope is in the Truth! It's a great place to put your hope and faith-not an easy place, but a great one! Really, the only one.

Dear Mike;

I had the pleasure of knowing some dissidents (open and closeted) in the old Soviet empire. Everything that we worry about, they had in spades (secret police, phone taps, party control of employment, etc., etc.). And yet they were taken down, not by guns and tanks, but by a relatively small number of chain-smoking intellectuals. Read some of Vaclav Havel or Adam Michnic or some of the other dissidents. We can do it here -
in fact, I would argue that we are doing it here. Here are some words attributed to Adam Michnik of Poland that I find useful :

Start doing the things you think should be done, and start being what you think society should become.

Do you believe in free speech? Then speak freely.
Do you love the truth? Then tell it.
Do you believe in an open society? Then act in the open.
Do you believe in a decent and humane society? Then behave decently and humanely. -