Comments: It's Wrong to Pre-Judge, But on the Other Hand, Zero Dark Thirty Sure Looks Like Total Garbage

Who's Bin Laden?

Posted by cemmcs at December 10, 2012 11:07 PM

Who's Bin Laden?

Posted by cemmcs at December 10, 2012 11:08 PM

I've been having an argument elsewhere with an Obama-lover (the description is not exaggerated) who enthusiastically supports drone strikes and who thinks crippling sanctions on Iran are a great idea, because it might induce those lazy Persians to get off their collective butts and deal with their Tea Party types the way we liberals did in the recent election. That's tough love for you.

So yeah, this country is insane and we're all doomed. The movie, if it is as bad as advertised (no, I haven't seen it and don't plan to) is just reflecting the wider culture. Don't shoot the messenger, Jon. Or if you do, use a drone.

Posted by Donald Johnson at December 10, 2012 11:19 PM

The Fatherland is the more correct term to use in the halls and corridors of the CIA, IMHO.

Posted by Mike Meyer at December 10, 2012 11:32 PM

Near Dark was a great movie, but it seems to have been all downhill from there.

Posted by godoggo at December 11, 2012 12:39 AM

I'm guessing the movie doesn't mention anything about a fake vaccination campaign, or does it?

Posted by Christian G. at December 11, 2012 06:45 AM

"I sure hope I'm right about the movie and didn't write all this for nothing."

According to the headlines in my newsreader, ZDT is receiving rave reviews -- perhaps it should get an Oscar, they say.

Knowing that, do you think there is even the smallest chance that it isn't awful?

Posted by Ear at December 11, 2012 07:49 AM

As for the Greenwald column, let's be clear on what happened here:

Liberals are really, really excited about this movie, because it seemingly combines great movie-making, complexity and nuance (in their eyes), and tough-guy OBL ass-kicking. Remember, liberals, more than conservatives, relish these opportunities to show how big and tough they are. They are equally strong and mean, they say, just "smarter." For these reasons, this movie means a LOT to them.

Greenwald has revealed it to be a Dick Cheney wet dream, and this hits too close to the mark for our liberals. This cannot stand.

They don't care that he hasn't seen it. I promise you that they don't. They care because of everything I just said. The fact that he hasn't seen it is has become the big issue, because it gives them a free pass to criticize him while totally avoiding the merits of his arguments, which they don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole. I mean, the fact that Bigelow is channeling Riefenstal practically word for word is astonishing.

Posted by LorenzoStDuBois at December 11, 2012 12:33 PM

1) My sense is that Jonathan's grandpa the famous historian would be proud of this post.

2)Something I read in a book once:

"There is a time when nothing can be done.
There is a time when something can be done.
There is a time when a great deal can be done."

3)And speaking of time - I liked the tv series where Kyle's character got the newspaper a day early.

4)And speaking of counterfactual fables, my "It's A Wonderful Life: Final Scene" is the first comment at

Posted by mistah charley, ph.d. at December 11, 2012 12:41 PM

Do we really know for sure the Orcs ran away when Sauron was defeated? It may be necessary to water-board Elrond and Galadriel to discover the Real Truth.

Posted by Billy Bob Tweed at December 11, 2012 02:16 PM

Mistah etc., I always thought that bible quote would have made a killer slogan for a breakfast cereal commercial.

Posted by godoggo at December 11, 2012 03:51 PM

Also (inside joke alert): It's a Wonderful Penis!

Posted by godoggo at December 11, 2012 03:54 PM

I find inane silliness relaxing.

Posted by godoggo at December 11, 2012 04:47 PM

Hollywood is so fucking reactionary, but people are still in the mindset that if it has boobs and/or violence it must be a radical critique of society. I watched the garbage film Poison Ivy 3 recently and it went pretty strongly with the message that sex = death, the nudity just reinforced that. War movies are the same, people think that violence equals "the horrors of war" and is "anti-war" when people enjoy the violence. But if it doesn't show every soldier as squeaky clean and never swearing it must be anti-war/anti-American. Cloying pandering to the foot-soldiers is also a thing that gets misread, I remember seeing Platoon and thinking "if the lieutenants are so stupid, and the sergeants so smart, why don't they put the sergeants in charge?" Part marketing ploy (most of the audience will relate to the enlisted, if they know someone in the military they are more likely to be enlisted because there's more of them) and part a way of acknowledging that not all things in war go perfect, it's just explaining away mistakes as stupid officers, and freeing the enlisted from all responsibility for their actions. Do you know who else scorned highfalutin officers and thought that an enlisted man was better at leading wars? That's right, Hitler. Always wore the Iron Cross he won in the trenches of WWI and no other medal, to emphasize that he was just simple vice corporal. So I'm doing a Godwin, but I don't care. What I'm saying is that Hollywood is literally Hitler. They're firing up the ovens as we speak

Posted by blupp at December 11, 2012 08:29 PM

Remember Fred and Ginger? Wonderful old movies. Why doesn't Hollywood make movies like that anymore?
I've always thought that sergeants ran the army.

Posted by Mike Meyer at December 11, 2012 11:48 PM

There was a made for TV movie "Merlin" that I think applies better. At the end, they turn away from the witch, and she loses power. (This is also a Simpsons episode). If you apply this to LOTR, the state itself is the ring. You could also say state hegemony.

That makes the pundits Gollums. Wouldn't that mean have mercy on his instincts as much as possible while standing a safe distance?

It's more satisfying to stress how cruel and dangerous they are, but it's important to note the pattern, and how efficient they are at using nationalist mystique. That's how the ACLU was marginalized back in the McCarthy era. Obama's propagandist, Axelrod, calls this "enthusiasm."

Until after the assassination, I still believed in surgical strikes. I would have said something about danger, but it would in the end boil down to "My tribe, my side, my ways" and most likely I'd be incoherent, because the participation mystique works by constantly shutting down conscious thought.

I didn't break it in time. I believed in the not-Bush doctrine of smash and grab my dad told me. Years ago I broke it with Israel, and later only this year he seemed to follow along. If he tries a little he can see Netanyahu's policies more or less as "people's sticks." I don't know if he yet concedes it's standard US policy. I didn't mind being cruel myself though! I wish someone pointed out propaganda itself along with chemical warfare, pre-emptive war, drone war and assassination and now torture all survive because they are sold as lesser evils to scary things in the real world. That is their stated purpose.

In the tribal mind that registers as "haha, my side is right because yours is wrong!" I should have been able to see Pakistan is not Iraq, it's not Vietnam. That's a simple fact but who was saying it to me? All I heard was kill! kill terrorists! do it! Even leading up to the strike, I had this feeling like "Fine, you want to kill Osama? Go ahead, you'll see." But I condoned the idea anyway. It's not enough to doubt the expectations, you have see the reasoning and the goal. It's just that fear is hard to find in a world of hegemony, it works counter to the state's interests.

Posted by Lewis at December 12, 2012 06:11 PM

Getting Bin Laden is his ONLY saving grace so far,IMHO( other than being black, I consider that a MAJORPLUS on the American body politic)(Yes, I realize I'm racist). Obamacare remains to be seen.
Deadeye and his pet goat, Codpiece, those along with Bill Clinton put this nation where WEre at, would NEVER have gotten Bin Laden in ten lifetimes. Bad Shootin' Bill had his chance too, and missed.
Now if Hollywood makes a bullshit movie about the event, then I guess, that's Hollywood. When one sees one's elected officials on C-span and such spouting the same pile, quotes and all---why yes, I feel hopeless and lost.

Posted by Mike Meyer at December 12, 2012 09:57 PM

Soufan's pre-9/11 al Qaeda investigation was obstructed by the very same CIA. He went on 60 Minutes to talk about his book and believe it or not 60 Minutes couldn't be bothered to find out what happened beyond getting CIA assurance that such talk was absurd and distracted agents from protecting the Homeland.

How does a good faith torture program and decade long hunt for Bin Laden mesh with pre-9/11 obstructed al Qaeda investigations? Is there not a major disconnect here?

Posted by Mike at December 13, 2012 02:25 AM

It's sad to see Kyle Chandler in this rubbish. I remember him from "Early Edition", one of my favorite TV shows, which ran from 1996-2000. It was about a man who gets the Chicago Sun Times a day early and uses it to save people. And it didn't involve bombing anyone.

Posted by Faheem at December 13, 2012 12:03 PM

Who knows if bin-Laden was even alive in 2010? Anyone who trusts any statements from the U.S. government needs a check up from the neck up. It's better to follow the (I.F.Stone?) rule of NOT believing anything until they deny it.

Posted by par4 at December 15, 2012 11:17 AM

Who knows if bin-Laden was even alive in 2010? Anyone who trusts any statements from the U.S. government needs a check up from the neck up. It's better to follow the (I.F.Stone?) rule of NOT believing anything until they deny it.

Posted by par4 at December 15, 2012 11:17 AM

par4 nails it. 11years is a long, long time to milk the image of a man-monster as the herd was losing interest in the narrative anyhow. Everything restrictive and destructive is in place with barely a whimper or protest, regardless.

Posted by Rich at December 15, 2012 12:56 PM

par4: Bin Laden's wives sold the story for me. I feel the world would NEVER have heard the wives stories if Bin Laden hadn't been killed. Had he died previously to that time WE still would not have learned much about them, no interviews, no charges or investigations, no complaints from Pakistan concerning that night.
PLUS Hollywood made a movie AND its been on TV so that PROVES its got to be true.

disclaimer: I WAS FOOLED by the Gulf of Tonkin lie enough to enlist, so?????

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