Comments: The Parable of the Soft Bones

The torture was authorized by Bush and Cheney not Bush officials. Secondly, Obama will never pursue any investigation into how Bush and Cheney lied us into invading Iraq and Afghanistan because the democrats themselves would be implicated in the process including Obama.

Posted by Rob Payne at January 11, 2009 05:00 PM

Your first section is good, and I agree with Upside Down.
Your second piece doesn't work. Read some of Brecht's Herr Keuner pieces to find out how this sort of thing is done, or follow the Army's KISS rule.

Posted by donescobar at January 11, 2009 06:09 PM

"It seems sometimes we're more preoccupied with our self-perception as beacons of morality than we are with the actual harm we cause others."

I agree Prof Chazelle. For anyone to compare even for a second that millions of lives our govt has destroyed ( killed, refugees and IDPs created, children made orphans, young girls forced into prostitution ) with "our being wiretapped" or loss of other civil liberties is the worst kind of immorality.

What really bothers me is Prof Charles Fried's opinion that "It is a hallmark of a sane and moderate society that when it changes leaders and regimes, those left behind should be abandoned to the judgment of history. It is in savage societies that the defeat of a ruling faction entails its humiliation, exile and murder."

It simply does not work that way. The phrase "dustbin of history" is what would happen. It would be forgotten. People who suffered injustice ( rendition, torture etc ) would not get justice and would not be around to see history's judgement. Million deaths would be forgotten like the Armenian genocide. History could be re-written. And it is not about humiliation, exile and murder of perpetrators but JUSTICE for the victims.

When I think of situations like this, I always think of Ariel Dorfman's movie "Death and a Maiden". Victims must have and deserve justice or the memory of it all plays havoc with their lives. And Rob Payne, I hope you will be proven wrong and the new congress will investigate the war crimes committed by the out going administration.

As regards the second part, Prof Chazelle, I hope I never hear or read about such a 'situation'. That is grotesque.


Posted by Rupa Shah at January 11, 2009 07:04 PM

Rupa Shah,

I wish I was wrong as well. But like I said they won't implicate themselves. Besides they all belong to the same club. And remember the favorite theme of both parties is they want to move forward without looking back. Considering the trail of blood and mayhem they have all left in their wake this isn't surprising.

Posted by Rob Payne at January 11, 2009 08:06 PM

Now that we have this shameless confession..

"Bush: I Personally Authorized Torture Of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed»"
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/11/bush-authorized-torture/

Wonder if Prof Fried and people like him will change their minds?

Posted by Rupa Shah at January 11, 2009 09:16 PM

Nothing will happen to those guys. Hopefully Europe will pull a Pinochet on them. I hope so. Kissinger no longer travels there. It's small but we'll take what we can.

Rupa: My car crash parable happens all the time. We don't even see it for so deep is our self-love!

Posted by Bernard Chazelle at January 11, 2009 09:17 PM

Prof Chazelle
"My car crash parable happens all the time. We don't even see it for so deep is our self-love!
If so, what kind of country do we live in? What does it say about our society? What 'values' are we talking about when like a mantra, the elected officials keep talking about "our values"?

Posted by Rupa Shah at January 11, 2009 09:34 PM

The US is the last society on earth that believes in the cleansing power of military might. Not sure why because historically the US has never been particularly good at war. But that's how it is.
So dropping bombs on brown-skinned people is never going to upset too many Americans.

Posted by Bernard Chazelle at January 11, 2009 09:52 PM

I guess I have never understood certain things regarding human behaviour or govt behaviour so will accept the fact that govts do things though I do not agree with them and which are contrary to our core beliefs as a humane decent society.

PE Obama had open questions on his website and I had posed two questions and voted six times. Appointing a special prosecuter was on top of the list and Israel/Palestine /Gaza was 3rd on the list.
http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/open_for_questions_round_2_response/

SO, now he is asked to respond about what action he will take....answer below!

"Obama On Appointing Special Prosecutor To Investigate Bush’s Crimes: ‘We Need To Look Forward’»
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/11/obama-special-prosecutor-torture/

Prof Chazelle, yes, we will have to be satisfied with what we get. At the same time I will support CCR in anyway I can to bring justice for the victims. And it will be a kind of satisfaction that Rummy, Cheney and GWB will have to enjoy each other's company on American soil... no highly paid lecture circuit for them!


Posted by Rupa Shah at January 11, 2009 10:21 PM

I'm not sure the Constitution actually admits any rights for foreigners unless you read between the lines and assume the writers weren't monsters. Whereas the wiretapping issue seems pretty cut and dried.

Posted by hf at January 12, 2009 03:16 PM

I do wish more people wanted to prosecute Bush and company for violating our laws against torture. But in fairness, torture did seem to turn people against him -- some of them just happened to change their minds temporarily when they heard about gay marriage or Vietnam or whatever the hell they decided our 2004 election on.

Posted by hf at January 12, 2009 03:19 PM